Unlocking Bi-Directional Value w/ Jonathan Shroyer
Episode Details
Transcript
Discover the extraordinary journey of Jonathan Shroyer, Co-founder of Quimbi AI. This episode explores how growing up in a massive family taught him the importance of influence over command, which he later applied in his career by intentionally mastering emotional intelligence. Learn his powerful strategy for creating "bi-directional value" for customers and talent, his belief that data - not your product - is your company's secret weapon, and the essential leadership attribute he credits for his success across global companies like Microsoft and Symantec. Hear his inspiring personal story, rooted in hope, which fuels his pioneering spirit to reverse-engineer the future of customer experience with agentic AI.
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Credits: Host: Lisa Nichols, Executive Producer: Jenny Heal, Marketing Support: Landon Burke and Joe Szynkowski, Podcast Engineer: Portside Media
Lisa Nichols
Chromosomes. Little strands of nucleic acids and proteins are the fundamental genetic instructions that tell us who we are at birth. Most people are born with forty six chromosomes, but each year in the United States, about six thousand people are born with an extra chromosome, making them a person with Down syndrome. If you've ever encountered someone with Down syndrome, you know that they are some of the kindest, most joyful people you will ever meet. They truly have something extra. My name is Lisa Nichols, and for thirty years, I have been both the CEO of Technology Partners and the mother to Ali. Ali has something extra in every sense of the word. I have been blessed to be by her side as she impacts everyone she meets. Through these two important roles as CEO and mother to Ally, I have witnessed countless life lessons that have fundamentally changed the way I look at the world. While you may not have an extra chromosome, every leader has something extra that defines who you are. Join me as I explore the something extra in leaders from all walks of life and discover how that difference in each of them has made a difference in their companies, their families, their communities, and in themselves. If you liked this episode today, please go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a five star rating. Lisa Nichols
Before we get started, I'm excited to share that my book Something Extra is now available. It is rooted in the remarkable spirit of our daughter, Ally, and the heartfelt conversations we've had on the podcast. You'll find wisdom and practical tools to ignite the leader within you and uncover your own something extra. Visit something extra book dot com or find it at Amazon or in all major bookstores to order your copy today. Joining us today is Jonathan Shroyer. Jonathan is the cofounder of Quimby dot a I. Welcome to the Something Extra podcast. It's a delight to have you. You're sitting in San Francisco. I'm sitting in Saint Louis. Aren't you grateful for technology? Jonathan Shroyer
I know. Right? It's fantastic. Lisa Nichols
It is. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. You reached out to me, through an agency. And, when I looked at your profile, I'm like, definitely, this guy is somebody we need to have on. And, certainly, you've been in the tech space, and we're gonna talk a lot about that. And we're in the technology space, so I know we're gonna have fun. But can you kinda take me back? Because I know that you grew up as the eldest of ten children. That had to have been a crazy fun time, right, with that many siblings. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. So I think it I mean, I think it's fantastic to to be in such a large family and to to learn. So I had seven sisters, and I had two brothers. We grew up you know, we're we're a little bit of a military family, so we're all over, but most of the time was in Georgia and Texas, and most of my formidable years were in Texas. But, yeah, being in a large family, you learn different roles. You pick up different skill sets, and and you actually have to be an entrepreneur from the day one because you gotta battle for your for your own what's important to you and that kind of stuff. And and in my family, I was the one that was most technically interested. Lisa Nichols
Okay. Jonathan Shroyer
And so naturally, I I kind of have always kinda leaned towards technology. I remember, you know, my dad coming in at three in the morning when I was playing on my three eighty six, and I was playing civilization. And he was really frustrated at me because, you know, it was three in the morning, and I was, like, eleven. And, he came in and he said, I'm tired of this game. Why are you staying up so late? You need to sleep. I'm gonna delete this game. And then he sat down at the chair, and he's like, how do I delete this game? So, anyways, I've been a technologist from the early ages. So you've done some good research. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Well, I remember the civilization games because our son played those games too, and my husband played those games. And they were kind of it was more than just for play. I mean, there was strategy involved in that. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. That's right. Like You're building an, building an empire. Yeah. Totally. Lisa Nichols
Absolutely. So I'm sure that there's some things that you learned about, you know, from even that gaming. Well, let me ask you this. I mean, growing up in that, you know, that large of a family, what'd you learn about leadership? Jonathan Shroyer
Well, I think the thing that I learned is it's super important to understand the dynamics of a situation and understand, like, if it's never gonna work to tell people what to do. Mhmm. It's only gonna work if you can influence them. And so so I have autism, and so growing up, like, I'm high functioning, but, one of my areas of challenge was social and emotional learning and really understanding how to engage with the rest of society. Mhmm. And and so I actually I remember when I was in the seventh or eighth grade, I said to myself, I said, you know what? You've you're missing a beat. You you you know a lot of stuff, but you don't know how to interact with society. And if you wanna interact with society or in your family and actually drive influence, you're gonna have to learn what this emotional quotient is. And so then I set out on this journey to kinda figure out, like, how do I not assimilate to society, but how do I integrate with society in the right way to make an impact, but also then respect my own boundaries. And so in a big family, you've gotta do that same thing, which is you gotta figure out. You got seven sisters, two brothers, you know, parents, uncles, aunts. You know, like, how do you drive influence to get what it is that you're trying to achieve and then also learn from them. And so I think there's an element early on that I identified the importance of social emotional leadership. Lisa Nichols
That's great. That's awesome. That's awesome. We don't have a child with autism, but we have a child with Down syndrome. Now the thing is with Down syndrome, you know, the emotional quotient side is really high. Right? And sometimes it's the the basic things that are more of a struggle. But, well, that's that's awesome that you were able to navigate that and learn very quickly that because I think emotional quotient I mean, I think emotional intelligence is sometimes more important even than the other. Right? And, yeah, totally. Totally. And leadership and, just life in general, I think. So I know that you were fascinated by maps and geography as a child. I read that. You drew the entire world by hand. You know, was that a was that a foreshadow, you know, that early, curiosity about networks? Is that kind of a foreshadow into what you're doing with technology and networks now? Jonathan Shroyer
I think so. Like so I was always interested and very curious on how things were connected. And so I think that's why I got into geography, like, in the second, third grade. And and that's why I would memorize maps and stats and all kinds of different things. And then I started drawing because I was super interested in, like, you know, how do how does this all connect together, and how does how does the world work? And then, like, later in life, you know, you you kind of made an implication of, like, the story of how it was started, which is me sitting on this exact chair. And, you know, I was laying back thinking about, you know, the the future of human capital. And then immediately, the idea of a network with hubs and nodes, where, you know, the humans were the the nodes and the hubs were technology companies or technology itself. And how do you connect them and create bidirectional value kinda came into my head, and it then it reminded me of my Wi Fi network in my house where I have mesh networks everywhere. And if you have a weak node, then it's the output is not gonna be great. And so it made me really think about human capital and technology and how you need to make sure that each component part of the the human network is is operating and performing in a high function way or being empowered to do that or or incentivized in order to get that network effect. And so, yeah, I I've always been curious on kinda how things connect. And naturally in technology, there's large connectivity, especially with the the the Internet of things over the last decade. There's large connectivity and people understanding more the value of that connectivity.Lisa Nichols
That's really good. That's good. Well, can I ask you this? You said that one of your your purpose, I think even in high school I mean, you had some big goals, and we'll talk about that. But you said that, really, your purpose was to be one of the helpers. And what does that look like in your life today? And you have said that you had helpers along the way, and I'd love for you to maybe pick one of those and and tell us the story about that. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. So I think I think it was, you know, growing up, you know, watching Sesame Street and PBS and mister Rogers. I think mister Rogers, you you know, was was really good about the importance of being one of the helpers. I think he used to everyone's a little bit different, but this is the way that he used to do. He used to pick a list of a hundred people and pray for them every day, and then he would set about his life to try to just be a helper Lisa Nichols
Mhmm. Jonathan Shroyer
To be an enabler. And I think kind of growing up, you know, you play everyone plays slightly different roles in family and society, but I've always I've always felt the greatest amount of vibration and energy when I was helping somebody versus when I was doing something for my own volition or my own, you know, ego or whatever. And so I think that's, like, been super important to me to, like, how do I how do I do that in a meaningful way personally and then professionally? How do I how do I do that in a way that can drive business value? So then it's a kind of win win situation on both sides. I think for me growing up, I had a ton of different helpers. I remember I had this I had a really good boss when I was in my mid twenties. And, you know, one of the things that he did really well was negotiate and understand how to motivate and build human relationships, which is something I was I really I mean, I've struggled with most of my life, you know, with, you know, with things that we talked about earlier. But he I I I intentionally took a job with him so that I could learn, like, how do you actually engage with people? How do you talk to people? How do you how do you learn emotional quotient? And so just observing him and learning from him and understanding, like, how he engaged with people in meetings, how he talked. It was a great talked. It was a great example for me where I wasn't actively saying I'm working for you for this reason. It was me just knowing that, like, over the next eighteen to twenty four months, I'm gonna learn a ton. And I did. I learned with that boss and my next boss, which were intentional EQ, bosses I wanted to report to, was I really learned the importance of building relationships that are meaningful, that are trust based, that are not all based on ulterior motives and those types of things. And and what I was able to do from that is be able to say, okay. Now that I know how to engage appropriately with society, then I can actually be the helper that I wanna be. Because what I found and my wife is she's lovely in in coaching and mentoring me. But she would often say people, when they first would meet me in my twenties, they didn't like me until they got to know me. And she said, it's not like you're a mean person or a rude person. You're just difficult to get to know. And so with social emotional learning and learning from those bosses, it gave me that opportunity to be able to be kind of engaging from day one. Lisa Nichols
Absolutely. Makes sense. So when you think about that particular boss and was this when you were, supporting Microsoft Windows? Yeah. On the phones and that. You know, when you think about that particular boss, Jonathan, what kinds of things did you notice that he would do that, you know, really helped engage and and helped build a bridge between another human being quickly. Jonathan Shroyer
I I think the first thing that I noticed he did was actually before the meeting. He would sit down with me because I was his business manager. So he would sit down with me, and he would talk about the person. He would talk about what motivates them, what their interests are. He would talk about what they probably wanna get out of the meeting. So what are their goals, their objectives? He'd talk about our goals and our our objectives. And then when we get into the meeting, he'd focus heavily on, you know, how do I weave a conversation where it's where it's it feels really strongly like mutual benefit, and so both sides are getting, you know, a win out of it. You know, he would always say it it never feels good if I win and get what I want, but the other side doesn't feel good. Lisa Nichols
And they don't. Jonathan Shroyer
He said, so you really have to you know, you're always negotiating for yourself and for your agenda and your what you want, but you have to be mindful that it's never a long term relationship if it's not win win. Long term. Not win win short term. Win win long term. And so so then then then we would do a wrap up of the meeting and then talk about how it went, what do we learn from it. And so we would do that so often that, as you know, once you do something, you know, twenty one, twenty eight times in a row, it becomes natural. It becomes seg in nature, and your brain gets trained in that way. And so just over time, I just learned how to naturally be that way. Lisa Nichols
Oh, that's so good. Yeah. We we've always said that too. We you know, you wanna create we always say we wanna create win win win. We wanna create win for our people, our employees, our clients, and then also, you know, the business. Right? Yeah. So, it's it's so important that doesn't if you if you have a if you're winning and they're losing, it's a it's a loss Yeah. Really. So, yeah, so I know that, you know, you've even said that service really is in your DNA. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. Lisa Nichols
And I'm gonna go back to first grade Yeah. Because I'm thinking you saw your sister being bullied, I think, on the playground. And I love it because you're just big brother. You know? You just came and instinctively acted. Acted. Do you think that that might have been maybe one of your first leadership moments about, like, helping others is really important? Jonathan Shroyer
Well, I think so. I mean, I've I've always it was my sister, Cassandra. She's so lovely. So, yeah, I was in the classroom, and she was on the re on in recess. And so I think it was three or four boys or five. We were kind of picking on her, and I just saw through the window, and I just jetted out of the class. And then I went and you know? I did what I did what needed to be done, and then left her alone. But, you know, I think that oftentimes with seven sisters, you you get to understand the importance of women in society, and you get to understand also how women are mistreated in society. And so I think from a young age, just being raised essentially by those seven sisters. Right? It it taught me the importance of looking out for the people that can't look out for themselves, either because of their abilities or because the way that culture or society is set up. And so I think that that's always I think that's always what's been interesting to me is really, like, how do you help those that aren't able to help themselves? And I really feel that anybody that has abundance, anyone that has influence in their life, they should be doing that. That that should be their motto. They should be driven by that ethos. And because I think that's the way that that it's in it's the world is intended to work, the universe. Whoever you believe created it is irrelevant. The universe is intended to help each other, and so I think that that's super important. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Oh, I cannot agree more. I cannot agree more with that. Well, let me ask you this. You've worked across many global companies, Microsoft, Symantec, Autodesk, Kanban, Postmates. You've before founding your own company. What is the common leadership thread that would connect all those experiences? Is there, you know, a leadership principle that you saw, like, glow I mean, these are global companies. So what would that be for you, the the leadership principle that would connect all of those, the common thread? Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. I mean, I think that it's super important to be accountable. Accountable to yourself, accountable to your team, accountable to your vision, your company. And, there when I first started with Microsoft, they held it was back in two thousand one. But they had this kind of internal company, kind of kind of memo tagline called culture of accountability, and how do you build that? And I and I feel like a lot of times, that's missed. Mhmm. As as we've grown and as we've, matured and evolved as a society, that culture of accountability is so important. And accountability looks a little bit different for each person. They but I think that, like, you have to hold yourself accountable. You have to hold your team accountable. And sometimes accountability is joy. It's happiness. It's celebration. Sometimes accountability is tough messages, difficult choices. Lisa Nichols
Candid conversations. Jonathan Shroyer
And, you know, candid conversations. And so I think that that accountability is what allows you as a leader or as a professional or even as a parent to be able to to have the the relationships and the influence that you need and the trust that's required for you to do what needs to be done in the world to make the impact that you wanna make. Lisa Nichols
Mhmm. That's really that's good. That's interesting. And I couldn't agree more. I mean, accountability. And sometimes sometimes, that's why you sometimes find individual contributors that find it really hard to manage people people because they they don't have those accountability systems in place. But Yeah. Without that right? And and it's not really fair to to the organization, you know, to not have those systems in place. Well, at what point did you know? Well, I know because I think I read this. I think at the age of, twenty, like, twenty one yeah. Oh, no. You had a plan. I don't know when you created the plan, but it was a twenty year plan, Jonathan. And you said I wanna be the CEO by the time I'm twenty one, and that's crazy. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. So when I was twenty one, I built the twenty year plan. And I've so the plan was four pronged. And so there was a family component. There was a financial component, career component, and then a component like owning houses, owning cars, that kind of stuff. And so then I had built out the plan. I think it was twenty one, twenty four, twenty seven, thirty, thirty three, thirty six, and forty. And I had objectives that I had written out that I wanted to achieve in each of those areas. Mhmm. And and what I found is by the time I was forty, with the exception of one piece, I'd achieved everything that I had written in that plan. And I think for me, that was a testament that if you write it down and you revisit it Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Jonathan Shroyer
There's a higher likelihood that you're going to achieve it. And if you write it down, you revisit it, and you talk about it, then the universe knows what you want. And so I think it's it's those things are really critical. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Jonathan Shroyer
And, yeah, so I think I I give I became a CEO Lisa Nichols
At the age of forty one. Right? Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. Right right at the end of the twenty year plan. Yeah. And that was that was the capstone moment. And then I and then from there, the the the one piece that I hadn't achieved was having a child, which I wanted to have a child. And I just shortly thereafter had Anderson, my my son. And so and so this this next season of life has all been about, you know, how to parenthood, learning, growing on the personal side. And then it's all been about, okay. Now now that now that become a CEO, how do I help other people get to where they wanna go with their goals? And then how do I build and scale interesting projects that are helping other people succeed? And that's where so my next twenty years is really leaning into, like, the the more of the helper focus and less on these personal kind of goals. It's more about, like, how do I reach back and help other people? Lisa Nichols
Right. But, you know, really, to help other people, especially to reach their goals, you kinda had to go through some of those things yourself. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. That's right. Lisa Nichols
Right? I mean, how can you help someone else if you've not really done it yourself? Right? That's right. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Lisa Nichols
I love that. Well, we've already talked about it just a little bit, but Officium, was your first company, Officium labs, and you cofounded it. And I love this, Jonathan, because I know Officium is Latin for service. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Intentional. Lisa Nichols
Intentional. Yes. And so I love it. It just kind of all, like I just look at your life and I'm thinking, oh, wow. This this plan really has played out, because, you know, with wanting to serve other people and being a helper. Well, let me okay. So this is pretty remarkable because we just went through our whole, we measure we've measured our NPS for years, as many years as I can remember, honestly. And, but I know, like, during the pandemic, you achieved, like, a hundred NPS score, which is really remarkable. What did you do differently, do you think, to create that kind of culture in such a really hard time? It was a difficult time for for a lot of companies. Jonathan Shroyer
Well, I think what was critical, and I think what's critical with any culture, is everyone needs to be bought into the direction of the culture. They need to understand their purpose on what they're buying into, the purpose to towards the vision, and then they need to understand their impact. So if you if there's an alignment on vision, alignment on purpose, alignment on impact, and then they receive the incentives, whatever the incentives are for the effort, then it's a lot easier for companies to get a higher NPS, because the output of what they're delivering to the customers is going to be ten x more valuable than if Right. If if any of those elements aren't working. And if those four elements are working, it naturally creates trust. And the minute that there's immense trust inside of an organization, then the bumps are easier to handle. The stress is easier to handle. The challenges are easier to handle. So I think that's those are the three things that I really focus on with the overlay of incentivization that's aligned, and then focusing on that trust. Because then it'll it it's really that that element. I think I used to say the customer is the heart of the company, but employees are the lifeblood. Lisa Nichols
Right. Jonathan Shroyer
And so, like, if you want employees to be the lifeblood, which operates almost everything in the body outside of the heart, then and you want the body to function and be high performing, like, you gotta take care of your blood. And I think that's that's the intent of that metaphor. Lisa Nichols
I love that. I love that. Yeah. We've always said if we take care of our employees, the people that are doing the work, they, in turn, will take care of our customer, then our success will follow. And, yeah, I really I do believe that. Well, that's congratulations on that. That's not easy to, to get that kind of NPS. Yeah. And we've talked about this a little bit. You know, you you say your goal is to create bidirectional value for customers and talent. You've you've talked about that a little bit, but there's anything else that you wanna unpack about that, Jonathan? Jonathan Shroyer
Well, I mean, I think it's just important for companies to understand and for leaders to understand. Like, whether you're in, you know, in my net network mesh network kind of analogy or whether you're just in a large community or organization, And, you know, it's it's really important that people have self awareness to understand what is the motivation of those around you, what is their intention, and then what are their goals. And if you're going to be a great leader or even a great team member or community contributor, you have to understand those things and realize that your ambition is not the priority. And if you can if you can understand that, you could take a step back. And it's almost like you're not you're not the actor in the movie. You're the director. Right? If you can do that, then you can really start to think about other people first. And then you can still accomplish your goals. Maybe the pace is different, but you can still accomplish your goals. And you can actually accomplish your goals better because you have other people with you rather than trying to achieve it, you know, yourself. And you have their vibration, their their energy all kinda connected with you. So the idea behind this is that bidirectional value, if value is passing back and forth, if positive vibrations are passing back and forth between you and I like they are right now, then the meaning is gonna be fantastic and that we're gonna wanna hang out together again. We're going to do cool things together again. And when you want to be around somebody and they want to be around you, it ten x's the output of both of you. Absolutely. Kind of the that's kind of the philosophy behind the bidirectional value. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Yeah. I love it. And there are a lot of components to that, to that. I was just trying to think, and, I love this proverb. And I'm my my brain is probably foggy because I'm on some cold medication right now. But it's, you know, if you want to go if you wanna go fast, go alone. Jonathan Shroyer
Yes. Lisa Nichols
But if you wanna go far, go together. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. That's right. That's right. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. And, and it's so much more fun. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. It's true. It's trueLisa Nichols
To go together. Nobody wants to get to the top of the summit by themselves. Right? True. Jonathan Shroyer
It's true. It's true. Lisa Nichols
Oh, good. Well, I've got a lot more questions for you, but we do need to take a quick break. And we'll be right back on the Something Extra podcast with Jonathan Shroyer. AD
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Welcome back, everyone, to the Something Extra podcast with Jonathan Shroyer. So, Jonathan, I wanna ask you this. You have quoted Nelson Mandela's I never lose. I either win or learn as your guiding philosophy. Can you share just one learning moment maybe that has shaped you the most? Jonathan Shroyer
So I I was twenty eight years old, like, my first executive role. And it it the company I was working with, they did a three sixty kind of boss review. And so that your employees anonymously would fill out all this, you know, information about you. Right? And, you know, from my perspective, everything was going swimmingly. And, I mean, the organization was performing well. Output was fantastic. ROI was great. And so I get this I get this kind of report back, and everything was great except for there was one area, and it was people. People trust, people relationship, people respect those. And it really kinda hit me like a dagger. It might have, like, you know, made me a little down for a little bit. Mhmm. But but one of the because, you know, I've it's an area that I've tried to focus on. I tried to work on. Lisa Nichols
Work on. Right. Jonathan Shroyer
And it's not it's not my strength. But and so I had one of two ways to kind of approach this. I could either get mad at everyone and just say you're all wrong. I'm the best boss in the world. You know? Or I could say, what are they teaching me? You know? What gift have I been given even if I don't like the taste of it? What gift have I been given? So then I could then learn from it. And so I it was at that moment that I was like, okay. I'm gonna get a career coach. I'm gonna go to emotional coach and training. I'm gonna get a mentor. So I really made a concerted effort Lisa Nichols
Potential. Jonathan Shroyer
To figure out, like, okay. The people around me are not going to get me work to where I need to go in this area. Like, I don't have the right examples. And that's when the boss that we were talking about earlier, I intentionally reached out to him and said, I need to come work for you. Give me whatever job you wanna give me. It doesn't need to be an executive executive role. I just seem to be working for you for the next three years. And so I took, I guess, what people might consider to be a demotion, but I took, you know, I took five years off of executive leadership so I can figure out how to master this this capability, or this attribute. And then after five years, I was I felt comfortable going back to it. But, yeah, that was a learning moment for me. Lisa Nichols
Wow. I love that. Last week, I have a friend that was talking about failure, and he said there's only two kinds of failure. Failure when you don't try and failure if you don't learn. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Lisa Nichols
That's right. I just, you know, and to your to your point earlier, you know, didn't feel good. You know? It's like, what is this gift? I mean, it is a gift. Feedback is a gift. Didn't feel good, but, really, getting that feedback, Jonathan, has helped you be so much more who you're meant to be. Right? Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Lisa Nichols
That's right. So that's good. I know that you have, you know, lived and led across multiple continents, London, India. You've you've been lots of different places. Is there a global perspective really that is influenced your leadership style? Jonathan Shroyer
I think it's something that I learned in Europe. And in America, we tend to be capitalistic and competitive. And in Europe, they tend to be more collaborative in business. And even in in Asia, they tend to be somewhat more collaborative. And so I think the leadership principle I took away from Europe, which I've always tried to instill in any company I've worked at, is how do we collaborate even if with competitors? How do we collaborate and make what we're trying to do more meaningful and more interesting for our customers? Everything doesn't have to be cutthroat. Everything doesn't have to be ultra competitive. There are ways for you to have have respect your competitors, protect your IP, but also have meaningful conversations and relationship for mutual good. Mhmm. Lisa Nichols
That's so good. I really love that. My mantra this year was connect, collaborate, create. Jonathan Shroyer
Nice. Lisa Nichols
When you collaborate, truly, you can create even something new Yep. Or something better. Right? I mean, you can improve what you've you know, you've already got. So I I love that. You talk a lot about psychological safety, Jonathan. And, you once said if everyone feels safe, they'll thrive in ways that we did not even expect. I mean, what do you think how do you build psychological safety within a team where people can truly be their best self? Jonathan Shroyer
I I think it's really important for people to live the Nelson Mandela principle. I mean, if you think that everything that you do is either a success or a failure, then you're putting yourself into psychological war warfare inside your head. Lisa Nichols
Right. Mhmm. Jonathan Shroyer
And you're creating a narrative that isn't helpful for you or helpful for anybody. And so I, you know, I'm a fairly assertive business person where I wanna have results, I wanna drive. And at the same time, I tend to let things go. Like, I'll see people, you know, perhaps make mistakes or do things less efficiently, but I don't often go after that. I had a conversation last night with the chairman of one of my companies, and and we guys I was giving him an example, and he said, why don't you just go and tell them? And I said, well, what's the point? I said, it takes me two minutes to fix. They're working hard. They're probably stressed they're probably stressed out. They don't need to hear from me that they've made a mistake. That what they need from hear from me is support. And I said, if if if the mistake was gonna, you know, roll us off the mountain, obviously, I would I I would talk about it. But it's like it it it wasn't that big of a mistake. It was just everyone's busy. Everyone's working hard. And so I think you have to be mindful that not everybody around you is going to be perfect. We're all humans. And and naturally, obviously, if somebody consistently makes the same mistake over and over and over, you need, Lisa Nichols
When you detect a pattern. Jonathan Shroyer
You need to do coaching and mentoring, but you don't need to go after every what you perceive to be an error every time. Mhmm. And I think that if we could take that five seconds and think about, like, do I actually need to raise this to the person, or is this something that I just document for myself? So if it happens again, then maybe I think about raising it. So I think just we all just need a little bit more grace. Lisa Nichols
Oh, that's that's gold right there. I agree. I agree. More grace for sure. Well, let's talk about Quimbee dot a I because you cofounded that in twenty twenty five. Tell us more about it. Tell us what is it, you know, and, you know, I know that you're combining Agintiq AI, which big buzzword, with human centered design. And so tell us tell us what it is. Tell us, you know, obviously, we're a technology company, so we do we talk a lot about AI, but there may be listeners out there that don't really understand what that is. So maybe you can kinda break that down for them. Jonathan Shroyer
Well, you know, I think what's interesting about Quimby and and one of the challenges that companies have had for a long time is is how do I use data and information, in combination with design to provide customers with the content that is most likely to allow them to get value from the product that they ostensibly love because they chose to do it. Whether it's a video game, you know, whether it's a TV show, whether it's shoes, whatever it is. Right? Lisa Nichols
Mhmm. Jonathan Shroyer
And so the idea behind Quemby, which is beach headed in video games and ecommerce, but the idea behind it is we have the ability with the Agintiq AI, by bringing together multiple data sources about a customer to really understand the intent of the customer and what their interests are and what's going to be compelling to them. And so we we we're able to do that on the back end of these of these companies' products to help then the company surface information offers, incentives, whatever it might be depending on the vertical to then the customer's like, oh, they they know me. So it's hyper personalized. They know who I am. They care because they they can send they they're sending me the right stuff. Right. You know, a a road campaign that isn't interesting to me at all. And this is actually applicable and useful. So, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna take advantage of this. And so I think that, you know, the future of of kind of commerce is all about intent and understanding the customer and using AI to be able to do that in meaningful and interesting ways for the customer. And then if it's meaningful and interesting for the customer, then it's naturally gonna become meaningful and interesting for the bank account in your company. Lisa Nichols
Exactly. Your customer is gonna be much more engaged and much more willing to to, you know, if it's an upsell situation or whatever the case may be. Right? That's awesome. Well, you know, what what do you think, business leaders because gaming, we've talked about this kind of in a sidebar conversation. It's a it's a big industry. It's a I don't know I don't know in GDP what it is exactly, but, it's a big industry. I mean, what do you think business leaders can can learn from that world, Jonathan? Jonathan Shroyer
No. I think it's interesting. So gaming is about three hundred billion right now. Lisa Nichols
Okay. Jonathan Shroyer
And so it's larger than Hollywood, which most people are super surprised about. I I think, you know, maybe there's three things people can learn from gaming. I think the first thing is, you know, the most successful games build beautiful content, narratives, and journeys. And so how do you think about your customer and their journey with your product? And is it beautifully designed? Is the data there so they have the right content? And are you paying attention to when why they leave, when they leave, how they leave? So I think it's really important so to do that. I think the second thing that's interesting in gaming is you just have a treasure trove of data. Mhmm. And every product actually does any digital product anyways has a treasure trove of data, but most people don't actually tap into it. And people should see their secret weapon as their data. Lisa Nichols
Absolutely. Jonathan Shroyer
It's not the it's it's not their product. It's their data. Because their data will inform them what's going to help them bring ten x value to their customer. And so whether you're losing you're leveraging AI, analytics, BI team, however you approach it, you really need to understand your data, to to grab the eyeballs, to grab the customers, and so forth. And so gaming does that prolifically well. And then I think the third thing that's interesting about gaming is because there's so much digital commerce associated with it, segmentation and hypo personalization is so critical. If you want to get your game to a hundred million daily active users, and then you want those daily active users to stay playing, you've gotta hyper personalize your content and your engagement with them, you know, very acutely. And so then when you think about that concept with any other digital based company or really any company, is how do I hyper personalize and then segment and then make sure that I'm doing AB tests and experimentation with those segments to understand how I'm gonna be able to deliver more value to each of those segments or each of those personas. And And so I think those are the three things that gaming does really well, which I think probably other industries could take advantage of. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Absolutely. That would translate into any other business, really. So, yeah, we say data is your oil. You know? Jonathan Shroyer
Yep. Yep. Lisa Nichols
Your engine is not gonna run without it, but it's so powerful. I mean, it truly is. Jonathan Shroyer
Yep. Lisa Nichols
What do you think, like, if you were looking in your I mean, obviously, well, you might be a futurist. I don't know. But, you you kinda have to be a little bit of a futurist when you're an entrepreneur. But thinking five to seven years ahead, I mean, what do you think how do you think the customer experience is gonna look like in twenty thirty? Do you think it's gonna be this hyper personal personalized experience more? You think that's gonna be part of it? Are there any other elements, Jonathan, that you see? Jonathan Shroyer
I think that by twenty thirty, AI will have matured to the point where what we will start to see is what I like to call companion apps. And what I what I mean by that is if you remember you know, I don't know if you watched any of the Marvel Iron Man movies. Lisa Nichols
Oh, of course. Yes. Jonathan Shroyer
But, you know, how he has, you know, kind of the voice in his head, the AI that's helping him be his his best, you know, superhero self. Now imagine you don't necessarily need that in your head as a consumer, but imagine you have that on any website you go to in any in any place. A hyper personalized agent, if you will, hyper personalized companion that will quickly help you understand the value of of what you're researching, not only on that side, but potentially across the web. And and and I think that that companion will will become something that will become essential. It'll be like your Starbucks cup of coffee. Like, you will in twenty thirty, you will go to a website, and if they don't have a companion, you will just go to another website, because you'll be so accustomed to getting the information served exactly how you need it in a personalized way so that you can move more quickly through the decision process, get value from the products that you're looking to acquire, and then move it move it out and do interesting things in your life. I mean, that's my prediction is we're we're all going to have that type of a relationship with a product. And companies that don't understand that or get that, they may they may well be left behind by twenty thirty. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we say that all the time. It's not hype. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. Lisa Nichols
Here and, truthfully, you can't keep up. You won't be able to keep up with those companies that are deleveraging really well. There's just no way that you're gonna be able to keep up with that. So Jonathan Shroyer
It's true. Lisa Nichols
You gotta have a plan. You gotta have a plan. Yeah. I let me ask you this. I I know that you wrote some books. And one of your books, The Little Lion, Lioness, and Lana, is a deeply personal book. What inspired you to tell that story? And can you there's some elements in there like resilience and redemption, forgiveness, that sort of thing. What inspired you to write the book? Jonathan Shroyer
I mean, I think becoming a dad, you know, you start to have a different kind of viewpoint on life. Mhmm. The three characters in that book are me, my wife, and my son. And, you know, I I wrote the book. It's a short story, but I wrote the book because I was really thinking about them, and I was thinking about what I was learning about my journey, you know, up to that point in my life as well as what was coming up. And I and I felt the the principles that you talked about are super important for anybody to learn and and to understand. But it's also important to, like, understand, like, where you're going and to appreciate what's in front of you. And and I think that book, like, just helped me express some of my thoughts. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. That's so what what a precious, momento for for Anderson even to understand you more. Right? And you're passing along these principles in a way that he can really truly understand. So I love that. Well, I've got just a couple more questions here, and we're gonna talk about something extra. You've been described by people as being a pioneer, someone who can imagine the world ten years from now and reverse engineer it to today. We we've already talked about that because I asked you what's CX gonna look like in twenty thirty, and you were able to to say what you think that is. But, you know, what do you believe really fuels that pioneering spirit? Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. I mean, I think it it probably comes down to, like, experiences I've had in my life. And, you know, as you kinda go through life, everybody learns something from their experiences. So I remember when I was I think I was in the maybe twelve years old. I remember one one night, I was kind of sitting at at the mirror, with the razor, and I was wondering if life should continue. And I remember having a voice in my head that said, tomorrow will be better. And and so I put down the razor, and I kept going about life. And I really think there's a pow there's a super super power if you can plug hope into your life, into your soul, into your being. Because if you believe innately at the inception level, if you believe that hope will bring a better day for tomorrow, you have a responsibility to take some action in it. But if you believe that and the universe knows that you believe that, then tomorrow will be better. And then if you start to think about, well, tomorrow will be better because I I hope for, therefore, I believe it and I have faith, then you start thinking about, well, what what does tomorrow need to look like to be better? So it's not just waiting for tomorrow to happen. It's like, well well, then what what is it gonna be? And so I think it you know, from a young age, I've always been super interested in what's coming. Sometimes I need to be more focused on what's here occasionally, but but super interested into what's coming, what's the future look like. And Mhmm. And it's going to be better. And it's gonna be unique, and it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be enjoyable. But it's coming and you you should you should keep that hope alive. During the darkest moments of your life when you feel like you're going to break, remember that you you're you have that elasticity with your resilience to be able to to believe in the hope and to kinda to grow from that. And I think that's what drives me thinking about futuristic and different things like that. Mhmm. Then I start to think about, well, you know you know, what's gonna make it better in my personal life, my professional life in the world, and what aspirations should I have? What aspiration should other people have? Because if you have hope and then you believe in a better future, then you want to create it, then you start dreaming it. And if you dream it, then that's that, like, the twenty year plan. If you dream it, then you're gonna you're gonna write it down, you're gonna talk about it, and then it's more likely to happen. So I think that's some of the things that fuels me and helps me thinking about, like, the futurist. If somebody calls me a pioneer, a pioneer kind of thing. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. That's so good. Well, I'm so glad that that you had a change of perspective, Jonathan, because the world would have missed a wonderful gift in you and and what you've been able to create and you know? So but, that's really a beautiful story. I appreciate your vulnerability in that. Well, let me ask you this. This is called something extra, well, let me ask you one more question. If you if there's a young person out there and they're a young entrepreneur, you know, is is there some some advice that you would give them? Because life is I mean, Scott Peck said life is hard. Right? The Road Less Traveled. Life is hard. But, you know, maybe they're a young entrepreneur, and they're going through some pain, you know. What what would you say to them, and, what kind of advice would you give them about, you know, having that hope of turning that pain into some purpose? Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. Well, I think the most important thing, you know, for an entrepreneur, or for anybody in life is, are you betting on yourself? Because what I learned is you can give away your assets, you can give away your skills, or you can choose to bet on yourself and transform your abundance. And so I think the question is, are you betting on yourself? And then if you're betting on yourself, then hustle. Mhmm. Think. Innovate. You know? Those are the things that I would say to do. And I and and and don't you know, ninety nine times, it's not gonna work, but that one time, it will work. And so you need to do all hundred times. Like, don't give up after the nineteenth time because it didn't work. Like, bet on itself because ninety so here's the the rule of thumb. If you do something for fifteen minutes a day for one year, you are now more efficient at that thing and better output at that thing than ninety seven percent of humanity. So if you have that fortitude, you have that resilience, you bet on yourself, then you will win. Lisa Nichols
That's remarkable. Say that again. If you do something for fifteen minutes Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Fifteen minutes Lisa Nichols
a day. Speaker 0
For a year Jonathan Shroyer
For a year. Lisa Nichols
You're going to be more efficient and better at it than ninety seven percent of the rest of humanity. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. That's right. Lisa Nichols
Yeah. So but the the the operative word there is the fortitude. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. Lisa Nichols
To keep going. Right? Yeah. I have another friend that says, don't give up on your worst day. Don't give up. If things are not going well, don't give up that day. Jonathan Shroyer
Yeah. Lisa Nichols
You know, maybe revisit it. Go do something else. Revisit that challenge, whatever it is. And kinda to your point, earlier when you were telling about when you were twelve, tomorrow is you know, may look entirely different. Jonathan Shroyer
That's right. That's right. Lisa Nichols
So and having that hope. I love it. Well, let me ask you this. This is called something extra. What do you believe is the something extra that every great leader needs? Jonathan Shroyer
Every great leader needs a therapist. I've had a therapist for twenty five years for reasons beyond leadership, But I've had a therapist for twenty five years, and what the therapist provided for me was an unbiased, unfiltered viewpoint on how I could become the best best version of myself and then gave me tangible, actionable things that I could then go and do. So whether you wanna do therapy, whether you wanted to get a career coach, whatever frame whatever framework works best for your mindset. I have both, a career coach and a therapist. But you gotta put people around you that are really incentivized to help you. Lisa Nichols
That's good. That's good. Love it. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much. This has been so much fun. I have really, really enjoyed our conversation, and I know that it's gonna help our listeners. Jonathan Shroyer
Cool. Thank you for the opportunity. Lisa Nichols
I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Announcer
Thank you for listening to today's show. Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production. Copyright Technology Partners Inc two thousand and nineteen. For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit t p I dot co slash podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen.