do you think it's so rare? You know, insight is that it's it's an insight is it's like it's an intuition, but it's really clarity. Insight is clarity. It's not a moment of brilliance. It's something it's a discipline. It's something to be cultivated. And it's clarity whether you on something that could be an opportunity, recognizing an opportunity, or it could be clarity on solving a problem. And it might be a problem that you're having with a team member. It might be a problem you're having with your business growth. It might be something unforeseen that happens to us every day. And And the reason that I believe insight is so important is because insights are all around us, Lisa, but sometimes we miss them. Yes. We miss them for a variety of reasons, and we don't need to be missing them. I believe it's just this discipline of learning how to cultivate, recognize, capture, and apply insights. And so I'm developing a framework for that.

That is wonderful. Why do you think we miss them? I think sometimes we're just moving too fast Yes. Karen, and we don't take the time. Like, you took the time to sit in your office and going, what what is this like? Now what what am I really doing? You know? And that's when you came up with, well, it's a merger. It's a, you know, turnaround. I mean Yeah. Sometimes we don't take the time to really just spend time thinking.

Lisa, it's it's it's the time. It's the power of the pause. It's asking questions. I do believe the first and most important part of of cultivating the discipline of insights, of of capturing an insight is self awareness and self understanding. That famous that famous analogy of putting the oxygen mask mask on first when you're on a plane. Yes. Because when you understand yourself, then you then you are coming from a a position of much greater strength, and you're also recognizing, do you do you have a bias? You know, really knowing yourself. And and something that fascinates me is that, you know, a lot of great leaders do assessments. They do, you know, they'll do cliff, CliftonStrengths, which I'm a big believer in that, or the disc, or there's any number of assessments. But I believe that it's more than that. And I I recently spoke at, Harvard the har Harvard University has a the flourishing summit, and I was grateful to be invited to speak there. And I spoke on self awareness as essential to leadership. And part of that has to do with I don't think we spend enough time thinking about our own biases. For example, when I was, I I know I knew this going into this job as a secretary that I am allergic to bureaucracy, Lisa. I don't like bureaucracy, and yet I was going straight into it. Into it.

Mhmm.

And sometimes I would I would sense this coming in myself when I'm where I was speaking to someone who wanted something from the government. And I had to really pause and say, you know, tamp this tamp this down. Pause. You're alerted to bureaucracy, and so you're just not listening or you're or you're maybe not as empathetic as as you as you could be right now. That's one example. But, also, I've come to realize that all my strengths have a shadow side. And I see this all the time. I see this in leaders that are above me. I see this in my peers. For example, when you think about when you're really competent, the shadow side is you can become arrogant or dismissive. If you're a visionary, you might be impatient or undervalue execution. When you are optimistic, you might avoid things or or over prime or overpromise. And so when I think of self awareness, I I think of it like that. And I also think of it and this is something that it really challenges me, which is when you think about a week that you've had that was a tough week or a big week, one question that really causes me to stop at my steps is what what is it like to be on the other side of me? What would it like to be on the other side of me this week? And I would I would ask my team when I did my weekly one on ones. I would say to them, is there anything I could be doing more of or less of for you to succeed? And so that's part of self awareness. It's it's it's bringing other people in. And by the way, not every direct report even has the confidence to answer that, honestly.

Right. Yes. Yes. I mean but you need those people in your life that will speak truth. You do. But I know I Karen, I love that you said that because I have said that so many times. I love that question. And this can be not just in business. This can be with your family.

Mhmm. But I'd

like to be on the other side of me. And I just think that's a really good question for us to ask ourselves constantly, you know, because, if we answer that honestly, you know, there's sometimes where, you know, it's, boy, I come across too harsh. Or

I I agree. You know, there's another one that I, there's another two that I wanna share with you. One of them is, what do your team members know you care about most? And then the other one is, what feedback do you most resist and why? That's the hardest one for me.

That that I know. I know. And I say it all the time. Feedback is a gift. But, you know, it's not always easy to receive it. Right? But goodness, we need to. How are we gonna do better if we don't know better? Right, Karen? So

Exactly. Exactly. So when you're thinking about, you know, how do you cultivate an an an insight or recognize an insight, part of it is just doing your own little inventory and saying, is this an insight coming or, you know, or am I resisting it?

Mhmm. Mhmm. Or

am I making something up just because it makes me feel better?

Right. No. That's good. That is good. Well, you know and I just right now and, you know, I've talked a lot about data. Right? So we do a lot in the data space. Sometimes, I feel like and, I mean, organizations can be drowning in data. People can be drowning in data. There's so much coming at us all the time, Karen. I I will never forget this. Somebody that you and I both know and love, Sheryl Batchelder. I'll never forget her saying one time, sometimes you don't need more input. You just need to act on what you already know.

I love that insight. Is it isn't that gold?

I know. See if you can quote her in your book.

I'm gonna I'm just gonna interview her, I think. I think.

Yeah. Here you go. Sometimes you don't need more input. You just want you need to act on what you already know. But, you know, there's so much stuff coming to us all the time. How do you, you know, advise leaders to choose wisely? Because, I mean, I know for us, like, in our business even, oh, we could be doing this over here. We could be doing that. You know, I think that's another trap that sometimes, leaders and entrepreneurs can fall into, trying to be all things to all people. And we know that if that's the if that's your reality, you know, there's gonna be a dilution

there Yeah. Where you're not gonna do

anything well. But how do you advise leaders to to choose wisely?

Lisa, what you've described about yourself is a it's a positive that you're mission driven, purpose driven, generous. You want people to flourish, and you want your customers to flourish. And most leaders should aspire to that if they don't already, and most of the leaders I know, they they do. Right. And recognizing that and accepting that about ourselves is, like, getting back to my first point about self awareness, that matters. What I've also discovered is that and one of the first exercises I did with all of the agency heads is ask a very simple essential question, which is, who is our customer? Who is our customer? Who are we serving? Or who are our customers? We may have different types of customers. We also need to understand if we have a hierarchy of customers where there's some that have a different sort of priority. Mhmm. But who is our customer? There were so many agencies that couldn't clear answer that with clarity. And what happens or start ups saying Yes. Yes. Or or, you know, startups, nonprofits, government agencies. And this is because often mission driven people do have scope creep because they don't wanna say no to anybody. Right. And Yes. And people who are in public service like the state government, they're there to serve. And yet if you cannot define that, then you are going to have duplication of effort. You're gonna have a bunch of subscale initiatives, which which I discovered. I discovered that different agencies had similar programs that were not within their scope or their mission, but they just wanted to help. But that doesn't help if you're not spending your resources wisely. So the first question is, who's my customer? And the second one is, what problem are we solving for our customers?

Mhmm.

Really important to know this. And back in the day with WebMethance, we were doing this this software solution for enterprise software for global two thousand companies, and yet there were a lot of little dot coms coming around that wanted to use our software. And we said, we have to say no to this customer because that's not the kind of customer that's going to build this business. It's not our what we do best. It's it's revenue, but it's not the kind of business that we want to to invest our time and talents and product development into. And, Lisa, that was a very important distinction for us because I thought that was went bankrupt.

Sure.

And so by saying

They were trying to serve everyone. Right?

Who's not our customer. All important. Yeah. Who's not our customer? Mhmm.

Yeah. Because yeah. That's that's so good. I mean and and, Karen, in all transparency, we've been there where, you know, there have been times where we've, like, you know, even serviced a little startup that has no money, and then we become the bank. I mean, you know, it's like, oh my goodness. Yeah. We could that is so, so important to have clarity around that, I believe. So that is so good. Well, let me ask you this. You know, if a leader you know? And I know that you're still working on it, but what is one insight principle? Would that be it? That like, if you left the reader with one's insight principle from your book, what would it be? And I'm not I'm not putting words in your mouth, but maybe it's discernment. I don't know. Discernment between good and best.

My my meta insight would be make recognizing and capturing insights a discipline. Take it seriously. And not only should you take it seriously, model it for your teams, get them involved. You know, you can actually, you know, say to them in a in a meeting, let you know, let's work on this together. Let's ask better questions. Let's create the space. Let's make it safe for people to have insights or to question things or to say you know, or even to ask. I mean, I would work through these six or seven questions. These were on my whiteboard as the secretary of commerce and trade. Who's our customer? What problem are we solving for customer? Where's the leverage? How do we measure it? What is the best message and channel to to reach our customer? Because at any one of those points, any one of those questions, you can go off the rails. And Absolutely. And you see it happening. And and and especially, like, what's the best message and channel? It's like, oh, we're all over the map on how we're going to get the message out when really you can be disciplined about that. But there and there are insights about how to do that.

Yes. Well and we don't have time to get into it because we're running out of time, Karen, but I know you were very specific about that with webMethods. And I told you I was so intrigued because, you know, you know, I'll just say it, but you got a lot of media involved. You would have a client talk about webMethods and what had it done for your their company. And then, you know, all of a sudden, you know, it's showing up in a, you know, business insider or magazine. Yeah. And then somebody else is reading about it. You know? And, so you were very, intentional about how you went about, doing that. So I think, that's gonna be this book is gonna be so amazing. When can we expect the book to be out? What do you what are you estimating?

I'm thinking late summer, actually, and I will be posting some content on a regular basis on my LinkedIn.

And Yeah.

So I will be I will be sharing some of these ideas.

Yeah. So I would just encourage our listeners, go and follow Karen. Go and follow her because she writes I didn't even get into this, but I know you write for entrepreneur dot com, Success Magazine. You write for a lot of, media outlets as well. So, I've got just maybe I've got lots more questions. Well, I know faith is really important to you. You know, faith is very important to you. Karen, you know, what You know, you've consistently said that business can be a force for good. Mhmm. And I was gonna ask you where does that conviction come from? I think I know where it comes from, but why don't you tell our listeners?

Business is a force for good. Obviously, I be I believe as a Christian that the ultimate entrepreneur and creator is God, and we're created in God's image. But I will say I had a hunch about this, about, you know, being an entrepreneur. And my grandfather was a small business owner, had been an itinerant farmer, ended up becoming an electrician in the boom days in California. Always humble. And but what I saw firsthand, Lisa, starting this business in in my basement with my husband, bootstrapping it along the way, seeing it, you know, a couple of clips of death and all that all of that you you learn from the the the things that didn't work and the things that did. But then, Lisa, as it grew, it was extraordinary. What a company can do. I saw people so energized about using their gifts and talents. I saw people so energized about working as a volunteer grant maker. You know, I saw this company not only solving problems for businesses, but going into the community. We had people coming up to us over the years saying, we bought our first house because of this company, because you believed in us and you hired us. We send our kids to college because of this company. And and so I was so energized by that. And since this company went public, we we let it for many years. We stepped down. It was sold to software AG. Then software AG had it for many years. Then they just sold it to IBM IBM.

Two billion dollars. Two billion dollars.

We had exited it, but this was something that we had we were part of an amazing team over many, many years. And so over the years, this company has done so much, and and a lot of the people who worked at the company that we had while we had it and we were leading it and serving it started their own businesses, some of them more successful than WebMethods. And so I believe by the grace of god, we helped to foster this environment of innovation and ingenuity where people would have courage and step out. And this is what the marketplace does. Now, obviously, not every business treats its, you know, folks well or Right. Or or or does that. But but I do believe that far and away, most companies do and that the whole world is looking to the business community Mhmm. Or say that.

Yeah. Yeah. That is so good. Well, I'm grateful to be a part of it, and I know you are too. Well, I've got a little lightning round for you, rapid fire questions here. Is there a word or a mantra that guide you today?

Oh, that's fascinating that you say that, Lisa, because on any given day, there are probably multiple words. But I would say that the word flourish just captures my imagination.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Ain't that a great word? Yeah. I love that. And you've mentioned that several times, and you know about the Christian Business Women's Breakfast that the Rooted Sisters here in Saint Louis produces. That was our theme for this year.

Oh my god.

Had not talked to you. I had not talked to Tony Counts Whitley or anybody about that. So isn't it amazing that Flourish, was our was our theme for the year? I know that you got two boys, Hudson and Jackson, and I read this about you, and I loved it. And I have never done this until last night, Karen. And my kids were like, mom, what are you doing? You play Words With Friends. Use them for connection. And so I'm getting on there. I never played Words With Friends, and I'm getting on there last night. And, Paige, Armildot, she goes, mom, what are you doing? She goes, I've never seen you play games on your phone. But I just I love that. Hey. Is there a leadership lesson or two that your boys have taught you, Karen?

Oh, yes. Definitely. Their love is unconditional, by the way, which I'm I'm grateful for. I would say that that our kids have taught me how to listen better. And the reason that they've taught me how to listen better is because I needed to learn that lesson. I didn't always appreciate it, but they gave me feedback either either direct and gracious or otherwise. Yes. And, gosh, we need we need our kids to teach us. We need our kids to teach us. And then I guess the only other thing I would say is that, through the listening, I think I've helped them do what my parents helped me do. Not as much as I and I I ask myself this question a lot, but I've helped them figure things out on their own by not jumping in. Like, my parents would you know, they'd say, you get this done, and then they go away, and then we go they come back and it better be done.

Yeah. Well and and to your point, it was out of necessity. Right? I mean, your dad was going to school at night and working, and your mom was working, and they they needed you guys to stand on your own two feet. You know? And

Yep. It was so It's

all for one and one for all. I love that. I love that. Well, I've gotta talk about this. I know one of your favorite pastimes is sailing. Oh. I mean, this is kind of a a funny question, but, you know, it's called Glad Inn It is the name of your catamaran. Right? You know, do have you figured out or, you know, have you, like, set back, Karen? Because I'm sure you have. Talking about the parallels between sailing the open sea and a start up.

Yes. Yes. Yes. There. Oh my gosh. And by the way, we did not grow up in a family with boats at all, and our kids ended up going to a sailing camp, which is a whole other story we'll talk about sometime. Yeah. Lisa. And because they went to sailing camp, we got a little catamaran, and we've so then then we just tried this, and then we tried that, and then we end up owning a catamaran. And, and it's a it's a great catamaran. It's got four cabins in it, plus a crew lives on board, and we charter it out. And, yes, it's it is a business. It's definitely a business. It's like a start up. But even more than that, there are so many passages in the Bible about the ocean and the sea and God's grandeur, and you have to rely on God to be a sailor. I mean, you have to really you have to all get certified, but you're out in the open sea where there is so much you cannot control, and you see the power and the glory of God out on the open ocean.

Mhmm. There's some uncertainty there. We did we did a sailing trip years ago with our attorney and his wife in the Chesapeake Bay, and it was we'd gone to Annapolis, and it was so choppy. I mean, really, after about thirty minutes, our our attorney's wife, dear friend of mine, she goes, you gotta take me back to the shore. So I'm back to the shore. But just recently, when we were in Florida, our son, Jordan, said I let's run a sailboat. You know? And we did go sailing. We had a captain and everything. You know? We we don't know anything about sailing. It was so relaxing, Karen. I said, I can see myself doing this more. It was so nice. And then Jenny, who I know that you've met, they've got a little Cameron, and they love to single too. But, yeah, I think that's so cool. Well, gosh. I gotta ask you. This is called something extra. What is the something extra that you believe every leader needs?

I I I have to say that I think it's insight. I think it's it's it's the understanding that if what you want is clarity and wisdom and discernment, you have to cultivate it. It has to be a discipline. It's almost like a spiritual discipline, Lisa. You have to you have to have and and it needs to be in a way that works for you. Right? Everybody processes information and comes at it at it slightly uniquely because we're all so fearfully and wonderfully made. But I suggest a framework, and I I I and my book will be about suggesting that framework because it's really essential. If you want a full if you're a generous leader, you're a mission driven leader, you wanna flourish, you want your team to flourish, you want your company to flourish, it's essential that you cultivate the discipline of of recognizing, capturing, and applying your insights.

Yeah. Well, that gives me hope because the the operative word there is cultivate, which basically means anybody can do it. But you've got to have the intention, like you said, in the discipline to make it a priority, Karen.

Yeah. At least they're there. The insights are there, and there's some insights that are even within you. There's, like, this treasure. Right? That's in you.

Well, I cannot wait for your book, girl. Get to working on it because it's I know it's gonna help people. So, this has been so fun, Karen. I've absolutely loved every minute with you. Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show today.

Thank you. You as well.

Thank you for listening to today's show. Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production. Copyright Technology Partners Inc two thousand and nineteen. For show notes or to reach Lisa, visit tpi dot co slash podcast. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you listen.