Isn't that the way it goes? Isn't that the way it goes? You know? I mean, mentor, mentee, you know, you learn as much. Right? Love Gene Toomes. You know, I served on the junior team up board with him for a while and, loved him. And, of course, you know, I had an affinity for him immediately because my dad's name was Gene. Uh-huh. And I would always tell him, yeah, my dad actually got to meet him one time before he passed away. Yeah. Before my dad passed away, and then, of course, Jean passed away a few years ago. But let's talk about MiTek a little bit because MiTek is really known for its strong culture and core values. You know, why what were the four the I think there were seven core values.

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

That and you say the core values are unchangeable. Right? The way that we go about things can change because methods change, but the core values themselves. Well, do you remember some of those core values? I'm sure you do.

Oh, yeah. Well, the number one, I still remember how we've how we how we came up with those core values. You know, I I I had left MiTek for a short for about eighteen months. I actually was still a con I was still working on a big project for MiTek. The whole eighteen months, I wasn't actually employed by MiTek. And, and then Gene called and asked me to come back because he wanted to retire, in a year or two, and he wanted me to come back to be CEO. So, which I actually didn't wanna do. I didn't wanna come back, and Kathy didn't want me to go back. And then, a lot of prayer about that Yes. Was because, we would have an opportunity to put a little bit of a different, flavor on on on the culture. Mhmm. And, and when we, when I came back and I actually just, I was attending a sales meeting as an observer. I was just you know, I knew a lot of the guys from the old days, you know, when I was there and running the sales department. And, and we went through an exercise to identify core values for the company. And I thought this is really cool. This is something I would have wanted to do once I became CEO, And but we we did it. And, and with thirty five in the room, we broke up into seven, groups of five. They even insisted that I'd be part of one of the groups. But they identified all these candidate core values, You know, all the kinds of ones that you would think of teamwork and all the all the all the things. And what I was most proud of all the time, you know, I was there from that point through my career as CEO, it was that unanimously, this team of thirty five picked integrity as number one. Oh. And that meant a lot to me. Yes. So it was, you know, it's integrity. It was, it was a a passion for excellence. It was a a commitment to the customer. It was, you know, ownership minded. It it was there were values where I don't remember every one of them, but there were seven core values that we came up with, and it all were very, very special.

Well, Tom, let me ask you this. You know, and Drucker, right, famously said culture will eat strategy for breakfast. Why is culture so I mean, strategy is important too. But I think it's cultures that every bit is important, if not a little bit more. You know, even in strategy, you can have a great strategy. But if you got a lousy culture, why why is that important?

Well, culture is insidious in both a good way and a bad way.

Yes.

Culture actually, is like a living organism in your organization, and it can it can be very disruptive if it's not the right culture. We had a great culture at MiTek. Gene did a great job of instilling, you know, in us that customers were so important. It wasn't always like that, because, you know, the, you know, predecessor to Gene was more of an operations guy. So it was more about financial stability. It wasn't real. The customers were a means to an end instead of really being the prize. The customers are the prize. You know? And and Gene, he he really instilled that, to the point where that never went away. I always said we started at with entrepreneurs. You know, so we were just, you know, that kind of a company. We were, sort of an innovative company, and then then we became a a process driven company and financially driven. And then under Gene, we became a customer driven company. And then I wanted us to be a value driven company. I wanted us and and and none of the others ever went away. They nested is what happened.

Yeah. You need them all.

Every one of them. So it wasn't calling us. I always displayed them in a you're never in in in that kind of an order, but always in a, you know, continuum because they're constantly, you know, connected with one another. And and culture just really, it just made all the difference in the world. We it's because you want people to come to work because they want to come to work, not just because they have to come to work.

Right.

And, and that was one of the things, I I had a friend that would say, you can get up in the morning and go, oh, I have to go to MiTek today. Or you can get up in the morning and say, I get to go to MiTek today. And that's a big difference. Yeah. I talked I've talked to other people that you you and I both know together, and yourself as well. You and Greg are an example of that. And, you know, we I always wanted to make sure people didn't come to MiTek every day just because it was a job. Yes. For the first time they got an offer for more money that they were gonna leave, I I I really, felt great about finding out that people were being approached and not leaving because they didn't wanna leave, because we actually believe that everybody, was entitled to dignity and respect regardless of their role in the company. It did it didn't matter if you were the CEO, if you were the head of sales, if you were a packer on the stamping line, or, you know, whatever it might have been. And, we started to really get that. It took about five years to really see it on autopilot.

Yeah. That's so good. That is so good. Well, you know, I know that one of your philosophies, Tom, was empowerment. And you said almost to the point of abdication. In fact, I read something that said, sometimes I felt like, wow. You know, it really felt like you weren't doing anything because you you had abdicated. But why is healthy empowerment? What does that really look like? And I do think it's important. People want to have that ownership. Right?

Yeah. Absolutely. It's one it's one of my most favorite things to talk about. Empowerment, you can't pay lip service to that. Yeah. If you say that, and that was one of our core values. And thanks for, you know, for, prompting me. You know? And Yeah. So empowered people is one of our core was one of MiTek's core values. And you can't say that and not do it. I used to say I have I had a saying, I know it's gonna sound weird, that if we're gonna say we are who we say we are, we have to be who we say we are.

Yeah. So good.

So I would I would tell CEO friends, when they would say our people are our most valuable asset. And I and I I could love these people very much, you know, as my friends that see but I I would say I would say don't say that unless you are really delivering on that because your people know the difference.

Yeah.

You know, it the, you know, the customers are really not the not the players. The players are are your people. And what you want your customers to experience, your own people have to experience that first. So so if if they don't feel empowered and if they don't feel valued Yeah. They're not gonna be as good at that being felt by the customer unless they're feeling it first.

How can they? You know? How can they, Tom? How can they project that when they don't feel it themselves?

They can't. They can't. So I would tell my friends, I would say, just just be silent on that issue. Come up with a different phrase, but don't say our people are our greatest asset when they're not. You know? It's a Yeah. That was the kind of thing. I remember standing in front of a group in the factory. I used to love to do this. And, and I and I learned a little bit of this from a good friend who you know very well, and he just recently passed away, Bob Chapman. And actually going being on the on the shop floor and having conversations, and he had he had a a term for it, and I can't remember what it was, but, that's what I started to do. And so somebody asked me about this empowerment, thing. And, you know, cynically, like, yeah. Right. You know? And I said, well, I said empowerment starts with empowered leaders. So you're not gonna feel empowered unless I make sure the leadership team is is feeling empowered. And that's exactly what you were referring to about, you know, you almost have to abdicate responsibility. Right. But you're not because you're accountable. I mean, I'm I'm accountable. I'm the guy that has to deal with, you know, my boss if something goes wrong. You know? Yes. Even no matter who did it, it's still, you know, up to me. Yes. That that whole thing of an of of of, you know, not abdicate. But you have to really empower people even to the point when they make a mistake

Right. Yeah.

That you don't just come down on them. I mean, you know, you're gonna have an opportunity to coach them later. But take care of the problem, whatever it is, and then let's all learn from it. Now is, you know, saying, you know, you can't you know, you you know, if you've, you know, fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you or something like that. But I can't remember the order of that, but you know what I mean? It's Yes. It's one of those things that, you know, you gotta give people a second chance. Otherwise, they're not gonna feel empowered. And that's what we did. And, yeah, I I had CEOs ask me, how do you do this? And I said, well, they asked me, what is, like, one thing I can do to be better at this? I said, get out of the way. Get out of the way. If you if you believe in your people and they're as valuable as you say and they're as effective as you say, let them do their job. And when they don't, then you have every reason. But if you're interfering all the time, then they're gonna say, well, that's really what, you know, I thought you wanted, so that's why I did it. Well, that's not a good that's not the best reason. Let's put it that way.

Right. Oh, that's so good. I'm reading you would love it, because I know you're a voracious reader, Tom, but I'm reading, John Maxwell's return on failure.

Mhmm.

And, you know, his whole thing is you're gonna make mistakes. People are gonna make mistakes. So, like, when you empower, I mean, maybe somebody's gonna make the wrong call. But like you said, you've got to allow them to do that. Right? And it's just like, what is the return that you get on that? And just as long as you're learning from it. And like you said, again, if it happens multiple times, then, you know, then you may have to to make some sort of corrective action for sure.

Yeah.

But creating that psychological safety for people to try things and to you know, how else are they gonna grow? How are we gonna grow if we don't get to try?

Well, they're not. They're not. They're just gonna it's just like pouring a liquid on on the countertop. All it does is just kinda spread. You know? It just it go it gets shallower

Right. The more

it spreads, you know, and it's and that's what happens in an organization.

Yeah. So good. Well, we've got I've got so much more here. I'm hoping that we can get through it, but we do need to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with my dear friend, Tom Minenti, on the Something Extra podcast.

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Welcome back, everyone, to the Something Extra podcast with Tom Manenti. This is like a master class in leadership, people. So just get your pencils out. Get your journals out. You're gonna run wanna write stuff down here. But, Tom, you tell this story about your grandfather and your grandfather that had the barbershop. And it's such a powerful picture of an ownership mentality, and I know that that was part of, you know, think like an owner. Right? You know, tell that story what your grandfather would do. And then, you know, why is personal ownership? Why does it matter so much?

Yeah. Well, my grandfather is is my father's father, and, this was in the Bronx, and he had a barbershop and on, what they called Avenue Saint John or Saint John Ave. They my grandparents used to call it Avenue Saint John, but and, and I used to see as a kid I mean, as a little kid, four, five, six years old, my dad would bring me to the barbershop, and I would see my grandfather when there weren't people in the chair. And he would be outside sweeping in front of his shop. And I asked my dad one time, why did grandpa always sweep in front of his shop? And he told me that grandpa always felt that if as long as he sweeps in front of his shop and the person next, you know, next to him and the person aft you know, all those stores would sweep in front of their shop, eventually, the whole street is gonna be clean. So it was that mentality of, you know, you have an owner. I don't own this, but I'm gonna keep this part of my, you know, my when I'm a steward over Yes. You know, clean and it's gonna be inviting and it's gonna be the right, you know, invite in environment for people to, respond to. But, yeah, I I'll never forget that that he said, yeah. If you and if you keep and if every street and every city did that, the whole city would be clean, and that would be a a good thing. And I I I we need more of that today, quite frankly. You know?

We do. And it's so metaphorical, right, for an organization. Because everyone in the organization owning their role, being the best version of themselves in their role, I mean, the organization is gonna run so much better. Right?

Yeah. And you do it not he wasn't doing it for somebody to pat him on the back and say Oh. His name was also Tom. And he, you know, the, hey, Tom. You know, you keep your shop really, you know, swept clean or what you know? No. It it wasn't that. It was just this intrinsic, you know, thought that, this is the right thing to do. And then you see you would see them all doing it, you know, different parts of the day.

That's so cool. What a great I love I love the lessons like that will just stick with you one thing, and they're so transferable, I feel like. I mean, you know, I talk about Ally a lot. You know? I just feel like I've learned so much from her just watching, you know, that can be translated into leadership lessons. But we we see that every day if we've got the eyes to see it. Right? And I love that. Well, let me ask you this. You know, what are some leadership lessons, Tom? And you have seven grandkids, or do you have eight now?

No. We have seven.

Seven. Seven. Every week. One for every day, and we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about that, because I love, love, love what you do with your grands. But, you know and I'm sure you're imparting these kinda lessons all the time. But what are some leadership lessons that you think younger generations need to learn today?

Well, you know, the the number one thing is trust. I learned a long time ago in sales. I was not a great salesman, by the way. I just was a relationship guy. Yeah. I I I really never saw I I used to do a I used to do a little talk called I've never sold a thing in my life.

Yes.

It's always funny in the company with the technical guys, and they go, wait. This guy heads up sales. He never sold anything. But I didn't. I just I created relationships, and, and then eventually, you know, I mean, I would talk about our, you know, our products because they would ask me questions. And I would and then one day, they would say, you know, we need to buy one of those machines, or we need to start doing business with you, whatever. And then I just, you know, said, okay. Great. I'll set it up. But it's so it really it people buy from you because they like you Yes. And they trust you. Now your product has to obviously, you know, be relevant to their business, and it needs to be reasonable quality and and and competitively priced. But that's not the main reason that people continue to buy from you. They buy because they trust you. And it's the same thing in leadership. You know, I always say that leaders lead. Anybody who said, with some false humility, well, I like to lead from behind. What what is that all about? I mean, I've had to lead from behind. No. Leaders lead. You gotta get out in front. And I had a friend, somebody that you probably know, but I won't I won't mention. He he said to me one time, he says, how do you know if you're an effective leader? I said, look over your shoulder. See if anybody's following you. Just look around. And if they're really not following, if they're just waiting for the next thing, you know, the next command that you have for them, that's not leadership. Mhmm. I I don't know what that's called, but it's not leadership anyway. It's not effective leadership. So, trust. Trust is so important. I, talked about, the seven keys of trust. A friend of mine wrote a book, called People First. And, and the seven keys of trust as he articulates in the book are character, competence, confidence, caring, communication, consistency, and commitment. And when I was asked one time at a fellowship of Christian athletes national meeting, I was being interviewed, and they asked me what what one word would you say is, you know, the best virtue, you know, for for leadership? And I said consistency. And I've and and I didn't know anything about this book. I hadn't read this. I didn't even know Jack at the time, and and I just said I said consistency. I said, because, you know, the book of James says that a double minded man is unstable in all of his ways, and let not that man think he'll receive anything from God. Mhmm. So I I thought, well, I don't wanna be that kind of guy, and I don't wanna follow that kind of guy. I mean, who wants to follow a double minded person says one thing and does another or says one thing today and says a different thing tomorrow? Those those are double minded things. So consistency to me is it it it covers a lot. It's just like, you know, love fulfills all of the law, you know, that kind of thing. And so consistency is is one of the seven, but trust really is the key. And Yes. And trust is so easy. I used to tell my our sales guys. I used to call it the ten ten ten rule. And I

said glad that you're talking about that because I was gonna ask you. Talk about

ten ten rule. Yes. We'll do that one before. Yeah. Well, the ten ten ten rule is simply it may take you ten months to get a customer. You can lose them in ten seconds.

Yes.

And if you're if you're lucky, you might get them back in ten years.

Ten years.

Yeah. And so it just goes to show you, choose your words and everything because, you know, you can say the wrong thing in less than ten seconds and somebody. And I saw that happen in our company. I I I I remember a guy. It was actually, it was with this mentor of mine from, his name was Abner Yoder from from, Ohio. And just one little statement totally offended Abner. And if, there weren't some of us that had a closer relationship with Abner and talked him off the ledge, we could have lost all of Abner's business. So so those kinds of things are important. So trust really just like in a marriage, I mean, you don't you don't ever wanna breach that. I mean, you breach that, it's oh, gosh. It's almost impossible to really, you know

To rebuild.

Yeah. Yeah.

So okay. So shout out to our friend, Jack Lannom. Hi, Jack. Get Jack's book. Jack is phenomenal. He is phenomenal individual and just leadership guru, Jack Lannom. But, Tom, like, what are some of those things that you think can build trust? Consistency is one of those. Right? Being consistent with what you say and what you do. Where are some of those things that can build it? And then, you know, I mean, you can like you said, you can tear it down in ten seconds.

Yeah. Well, people see people, can see right through, any kind of, of a of a

Fake.

Disingenuous, you know, approach to leadership.

Yes.

So, you know, you know, this I was saying earlier, you know, you can fool the spectators, but you can't fool the players. Mhmm. And when you don't realize that the people, you know, who are reporting to you especially, that they're the players. So, you know, you don't wanna try to fool them because, they know better. Yeah. So, you know, you don't wanna do that. And and when you when you you you you you know, when you, you know, deliver a steady diet of that, they see through it, and it just it's just phony. And and people, you know, they really, you know, they really snuff that out. So that's one of the things that I I think is important that, you be transparent, you be consistent. You have to, you really have to be humble. Yes.

And

people people, you know, that people don't you know, what's the old saying? People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So and that's true. I mean, I always wanted to I I knew how I wanted to be led, and for a long, long time, I was not led that way that you know, until Jean Toomes came along, you know, and believed, you know, a lot of the things I believed. I was just really, you know, kind of like a salmon swimming upstream, it seemed. And, and then, but when you, you know, you when you you have that and, you don't you I wanna be led. I wanna lead the way I I I wanted to be led. So if I wanted to be led that way, then I need to be a leader that way.

So good. We could do a whole podcast just on trust and how you build it and how it can, you know, it can be lost. Right? So I'm so glad that you talked about the ten ten ten because I was gonna ask you that. Well, okay. So what our listeners might not understand is MiTek is now owned by Berkshire Hathaway.

Right.

So I wanted to ask you a couple things about uncle Warren. Okay? You know, Warren famously said intelligence and passion can never make up for lack of integrity. Right? And so, you know, for you, you've already talked about that, that that was the number one core value that all thirty five, it's so integrity is everything. And again, going back to trust. Right? Yeah. If you don't have integrity, then trust is gonna be broken. But what was it like working under uncle Warren?

It was easy, actually.

Easy.