You tend to repeat, the same stories, but they're important, I think, for vision and these sort of things. Anyway, one of the stories that, Ron always tells, is, that he's really a visionary, not an operator necessarily. And I just thought there's just this amazing guy who, started a wealth management firm, that has biblical knowledge behind it, but somebody needed to really scale that idea. And I just felt God said, well, I want you to do that. And that that's a very general idea. He didn't say start a firm. He didn't you know? It it was just and then I so it was just a it was like an assignment. When I when I sort of heard him say that, I I did actually think it was audible, and I I was like, Ron, did you hear that? And he's like, no. So I was like, okay. Well, okay. It wasn't audible, but I heard it. Like Right. Okay. And, and I don't even know the theology of all that. I don't need to know. I'm like the blind guy that I heard it, and I'm trading on it for the rest of my life until I get another assignment.

Yes.

So you know? And and then I was like, yeah. But I'm not some serial entrepreneur. I said I said it would felt like a loving assignment, custom made loving assignment. So I love that part. I felt really intimate. But then I had sort of had shot back with this sort of sort of mental conversation with God where I was like, okay. But I I I'm not I'm not a serial entrepreneur. I I I don't know how to just start a business to do that. I don't know how to do it. And he goes, well, like a like a sweet grandfather. I've got three grandkids now. You know? Like, chuckled I I felt like he was chuckling. He's like, I know you don't know how to do it. He go, I'll do it. You wake up and take instructions and give me the the glory. And I was like, okay. So I was like, amazing idea. I have no clue. Oh, good. You'll do it. Yeah. So I was like, no. Let's do that trade. So, anyway, at the time, I was at Morgan Stanley, and so we sort of, you know, put ourselves into that, and maybe we can talk about that path from there on. But that was, I I just think that's available for everybody. That's what I'd like people to hear. That is available for everybody. It's just I was drowning out my antenna in my twenties, and then I started kinda working on tuning it in, and I I have to tune it every day or or or the noise the way the noise gets distracting.

Right.

But if you if you're willing to tune in, he will give you a cool assignment that that well, it might be scary by human standards, but it's gonna be amazing if you lean into it.

Yeah. More than we could hope or imagine.

I understand.

More than we can hope or imagine, Jeff. Well, that's a great stopping point. We're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be right back with Jeff Thomas on the Something Extra podcast.

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Welcome back, everyone, to the Something Extra podcast with Jeff Thomas. So, Jeff, you kinda left us there. What happened? You were at Morgan Stanley, and you felt this call. God, you need to scale what Ron, Blue Yeah. Have done. Twenty seventeen, You left this billion dollar book of business, which had to be a little bit scary. But then, you know, you were trusting you were trusting God on it, and you founded Arkos Global Advisors. Tell us about that story.

Well, you know, we call it progressive revelation. And so so when I when I got that sort of kingdom assignment, to scale something, to honor God in this business, I was already at Morgan Stanley. I had started this little Christian focus, group where I was hosting a little, little call, you know, almost like a little Bible study once a month, and and it wasn't officially recognized. It's just sort of a little grassroots group. And so I thought, well, okay. Let's let's see how much of, the the culture at that firm we could affect. And so, we got it recognized by the firm. I had some friends help, build that, and we got it up to about six hundred members. And, and long story short, you can read the book for, some more details about how it kinda went down. But at the end of the day, it did become kind of a culture issue. And it's a public company, and that means the public owns the shares, and that culture is going to reflect the public. And most of the public, is is not really for publicly proclaiming maybe bible verses, which it was. But, and, unfortunately, it's a bit of a minority. So, anyway, that that that period sort of came to an end, and I and I knew that the culture was not gonna flip, really fully to a to a a biblical culture. And so, that's the place I had felt called to, and and I was on my knees the next day because the whole program was to ask God what to do and then go do it and give him the credit. And so I was stymied. I was like, yeah. We we went as far as we could here. What's the next step? Or I don't know what to do. And I felt like he was leading us to start a new company from scratch with those principles as the basis. And so I really you know, so things have evolved from there, and we've had progressive revelation about, how to grow that business over the last ten years.

Right. I like that progressive revelation. Yeah. That's awesome. I've got a friend that says he'll give you enough light for the step you're on.

Exactly. It's the manna principle. Right?

Yes. Oh, yes.

It gives you the enough for today. And don't try to stuff yourself. Yeah. You know? And you can I don't think he's mad at us for having five and or three, five, ten year plans and all that? Like, we when I started, we had a I had this, you know, the spreadsheet up a one blinking. You know? And I was like, okay, god. We're gonna help me help me write the business plan. Let's start with the growth rate. What's the growth rate gonna be? And he's like, yeah. You're not putting me on a spreadsheet.

That's so good.

Yeah, you're not putting me on a spreadsheet, buddy. I mean, I'm not mad at you for having one, but

His economy is totally different than ours.

Exactly.

Right? His economy is totally different. Well, it's Arkos. Ark and Telos. What tell me about that because they mean something

Yeah. Each of those words

mean Arkos. It's a made up word. When we were researching, branding and this sort of thing, I heard a great talk about, it should be two syllables. You can call your dog that, and then you tell the world what it means. Okay? So, Google. You know? Come here, Google. You know? So Arkos, two syllables. You tell the world what it means. Ark as in Noah's ark, let's say. So I always say, you know, obviously, that's a a a safe place. It's also here's my favorite part about it. Remember how God downloaded blueprints to Noah? I mean, exactly how to build the ark.

How to build the ark.

Right? And so that was sort of my experience is, like, in in, you know, in that case, he sort of downloaded all of it because he had a very specific project.

Yes.

But for most of it's more progressive, but he'll still download those plans. You know, if you'll ask him what those plans look like for you, they may not be all in one time. For me, it's been progressive. But but he will give you those, sort of a kingdom assignment as we talked about earlier. So download plans. I used to say even if they sound nuts. Now I usually just say, and they will sound nuts.

They will sound nuts.

They will. They sound nuts. Everybody thought Noah was crazy. Okay? So Yes. Download plans from God, and then Telos is the back end of Arkos, a r k o s. And that's what Jesus said on the cross, which is my purpose is finished. So, Ark, kind of a safe place to finish your purpose, download plans from God, and let's go execute. So I So I think what we see in our business is, an industry that kinda GMs people into a template. We can talk more about that. But it's it's, we don't want templates, and we don't want, state planning attorneys or anybody else telling us how to do things. The the tax stuff comes last. Don't worry about the tax code first. What is God telling you to do? And then be tax smart about it.

Yeah.

So, a lot of those plans, we we we try to give oxygen to those crazy God plans. And then let's go do it.

Oh, you you just set me up. That was the part of the segue because I was gonna talk to you. You talk about putting people's narratives before the numbers. Yes. You know? And, you know, that's exactly what you're talking about there, connecting. Well, I'll let you talk about it. But, you know, what changes when an adviser or a leader start there instead of starting with the numbers and starting with the KPIs and the metrics, putting people's narratives before that?

Yeah. I mean, that is one of my favorite phrases, narrative before numbers, and I know people can relate to this. I think we've all had this experience. If you've gone to see and and, forgive me. There are amazing, estate planning attorneys out there. They're great at the taxes. I don't mean to pick on them necessarily, but I'm just gonna use the estate planning process as a proxy for this. Okay? Normally, if you no matter what amount of money you've got, if you walk in, to an estate tax attorney, they're just you know, there's a big questionnaire. Most people just wanna get, you know, hey. We're going on a trip, across the pond. We just gotta get something written down here. And, you know, and it's pretty complicated. There's, like, most industries, like, if you were trying to tell me about your business, you could acronym me to death, and I would have no idea what you're talking about. Right? It's and then they you're trying to just get this will and all these trusts or whatever done as fast as possible with as little headache. So people tend to kinda get jammed into a template where you just divide your network by the number of kids you have. And, if if the estate is taxable, you buy an insurance policy to pay the taxes, and you're done. And while that might be appropriate for you, it might not. And and the only point for us is we say time out. Before we start jamming documents, can we please slow down and listen? Again, what is Gong downloading to you? It may fit into that template, but it may not. And if it doesn't, there are some really, really fun things you could do, especially if there's oftentimes, we find with our clients that there is something philanthropic that a cause. You know?

Yes.

You have a Down syndrome daughter who this podcast is named for. Okay? God gave you her. She he, he gave your daughter you and your husband, and it's been a blessing to everyone and and to the rest of us, who get to participate in, the things you've learned. So, that is a unique thing. There God takes all of us through unique opportunities and challenges. Yeah. And what is what are the causes that, we care deeply about that, you know, what breaks our heart? So, usually, there are some other things, that can be included in your sort of ongoing financial plan and your estate plan that, that are beyond yourself. And that's what I found is and I know you feel the same way. More satisfying is when we live outside ourselves, because that those are the two big commands. Right? Love God and love people.

Right.

Right? Well, if we're gonna love people, what kind of people? And where are they, and what what's the cause we're going for? So we gotta live outside ourselves. That's where the juice comes from. It's not from chasing the almighty dollar or or anything else. That's that's the only place I've been able to find it.

Real satisfaction and fulfillment.

So all we're trying to do in our is match up those plans. We're not trying to tell them what to do. Let's what is the narrative of what, what is God telling them? Yeah. To do? And then let's just match the finances with the plan. Simple. Right. But not jam a template into it.

Yeah. I love that.

So that that's another thing that I think about. Yeah.

I love that. And I think it was you. I think, Jeff, I I do read a lot and I meet a lot of people. I'm pretty sure this is you. And if it wasn't you, I'm gonna still credit you. It's fine. You can take credit.

If it's good, I'll take credit. Yeah.

But, you know, I think it was you that said, like, money, honestly, you know, you you said the two greatest commands. Love God, love people. Right? And I think it was you that said money is just a tool. Exactly. Money is a tool to love others better. Right? And whether that is I don't know. Whether that's helping people with special needs or whether it's building a, you know, new hospital or whatever it may be. You know, you've been given this money. You're a steward of the money, not an owner. Right? Yeah. You're a steward of that money, and it's like, it's a way for us to love others better and love them more. And I think it's such a beautiful way of looking at, you know, of money. So let's talk about, and we've talked about this, but I'd love for you just to, and and we we've talked because you're talking about the narratives, but you talk about generosity. And I know that, generous giving and, I mean, you've been a part of a lot of those type of movements in that. Right? Jeff, and you're more than welcome to talk about those if you want. But Sure. You said that really generosity isn't about twisting somebody's arm, but watering a seed. You were just talking about that. So maybe whatever that narrative is, let's figure out how we can water that seed and, but what does that look like in real life conversations with clients?

Yeah. Let let let me give you an example. Let me be able to just, tell a story or two. You know, we we have, I'm remembering a, a husband and wife that came in, and, the husband just is a gifted business guy. His wife is super administratively, talented. And, also, they they have several causes, that they just love to support. And, and and so, you know, one one of the things that often when people come in because they know we do a lot of, philanthropic planning. And so they'll usually have tactical questions, you know, about, you know, should I should I open a, a donor advised fund or a foundation? You know, they'll they'll usually, like, lead with a question like that. And we're always like, okay. Good tactical question. Time out. Write that down. We'll get back to that. But, again, let's go back to the narrative. Right? Okay. What is God telling you? Tell us more about the business. What are your passions? What are the causes? And so so in answering, you know, this question even about, the structure of do you do it in a donor advised fund, and there's some advantages there. But you like, in a donor advised fund, you can donate appreciated stock and this sort of thing, and it's, you know, it can be more anonymous about where you give and this sort of thing. Where a foundation is like an entity. It's like another little business to run. Right? But you can cut checks directly to buy a sandwich or, you know, whatever. And so in most cases, a donor advised fund is is, less complicated and that sort of thing. In in this couple's case, it was just obvious from her professional history that she'd be amazing at running that entity and would love to do that and wanted to write checks to certain things that weren't just nonprofits to support people. And so just by hearing the narrative of what their skills were and what the causes they wanted to support And just even the way the cash would flow, they didn't have a lot of appreciated assets to donate at that moment, but cash flow. So, like, the narrative always informs. So now we use the right, sort of tax structure to do it. And and to watch people you know, they're just hesitant to share these crazy plans with people. Like you know? Right. And and because early when I started tried to do this twenty years ago, before I kinda knew how to navigate these conversations, we had a, we had a business owner who had become a believer kinda later in life and so it started becoming more generous. But his accountant that he'd had forever, outside accountant, was not on board, okay, with with this sort of generosity. Anyway, we sort of got together and redesigned based on his what he wanted to do, he and his wife. This new estate plan had all this generosity in it. And we sort of took it to the new accountant, and she brought her lawyer friend, and they're gonna kinda paper it. Right? And, he started the the business owner started sharing, what he wanted to do. And I'll never forget staring at the accountant, and she just was just sort of jaw slack. You know? And she all she could utter was, why would anyone give away that much money? And I just think, that is how much of the world thinks. Right. And so it kinda blew up the deal. And so now we've had to learn, hey. You gotta be careful who's in the room. Whoever's in the room, you need to empower them to be part of the plan. There there are things that I did wrong in that Yeah. Leading that, process that we try not to make those mistakes again. But I tell that to to show the hostility that's available. I think if you've shared these ideas with advisers who are not aligned Yeah. With the with your worldview Yeah. And and, yeah, I think you need alignment in worldview, and then you also need technical competence. Okay? You need you need both.

Right.

But you and it doesn't have to be our company, but, I mean, you you that that's one piece of advice I would give.

That's a good piece of advice. Because if you do not have the same worldview, they are gonna look at you like you're crazy, and they're gonna probably advise you not to do these things. Right?

We've given thirty percent of Arkos to our foundation, and, I was interviewing lawyers to paper our side of the deal, and I couldn't find a lawyer in Houston that wouldn't try to talk me out of it. And I I finally, I called a a friend of mine, in Memphis who did a similar thing, and he said, just use my lawyer. So I called his lawyer, and and I have to go from Houston to Memphis to find a lawyer. I mean, it's just ridiculous. Anyway, so I called her. She's amazing, Mary Ann. And and, I I'm telling her the story. Hey. Every lawyer in Houston I talked to has tried to talk me how to doing this. I will God's telling me to do it. I'm gonna do it. Like, I I don't know. I can't have that in my ear.

Okay? Yeah.

And, so Mary Ann says she goes she starts laughing. I go, Mary Anne, why are you laughing? She goes, well, truth is I tried to talk Alan, my friend, out of doing it thirty years ago. Okay? He goes, but I've come around since that. Okay?

Yeah.

So it's you have to really work in finding aligned advisers who also have the technical competence. But don't listen to unaligned, people. Listen to the guy who's got your back the most.

Yeah. Amen. So how does it work out for Alan?

Well, that's an amazing story. He's in his sixties. Over forty years ago, he was graduating from college, and he and his wife were just getting married. He's an engineer, and his parents had a had two little cranes that they would rent out from what he calls the world headquarters of their, spare room. And, he made a his wife wanted to go into the mission field when they got married. He wanted to take over the family business of two cranes. And so their compromise was they take over the business, but they would pay themselves what the mission board, would have paid them. And so they and they would give away every anything else. Okay? So they sort of set this sort of financial finish line right out of college. Okay? The first year actually, his brother was part of this deal. The first year, they made fifty thousand more than they, the mission board would have been, and they gave that away. I mean, that's pretty good. Thirty years ago for a couple of twenty somethings, fifty grand. You know?

Yes.

Well, now the business is doing just fast forward forty years. Okay? They've they've kept to that game plan. And, they're they are, the business does one billion. It's the fourth largest grain company in America, and they're giving away, you know, somewhere north of sixty, seventy million dollars, a year, fifty percent of the profits and reinvest fifty percent. And, frankly, God has just blessed that bit the business. I I think I think Alan and his brother are amazing business people. They built an amazing team. They have wild talent. But I I I I don't know that Alan or anybody in the management team would deny that there is something god math Oh. About what has happened, to that business to continue to grow, and they have six committees to give it away. The six committees cover six parts of the world doing amazing work all over the globe. Alan Barnhart, Barnhart, great company. It's just so I've seen those kind of things. God doesn't have to bless you financially in that way, but the joy that Alan and his wife have Mhmm. She gets to travel the world the way she always wanted to as a missionary, funding these things.

Funding these different causes?

She's she's probably funding a thousand missionaries. Okay? And getting to do life with them. Yeah. And, and all these other people on the committees. And so, anyway, there's just Alan doesn't pay himself squat, but, he's one of the happiest people you've ever met. And I think that's ultimately what people are looking for. Right? Where's that going?

Yes. Oh my goodness. I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing that. Well, gosh. I've got a lot more, but we're running out of time here. Let me ask you this. You've got your wife, Dolly, and you've got two daughters. You've got Ally. And so who

I do have an Ally.

Yeah. Now I do have an Ally, you know. So that that connected us instantaneously too. When you think about your daughters and generations that are gonna follow you because you got three grandkids now, what do you hope that they learn from how you've chosen to live your life and lead your life?

Great question. I I I think the, we we have twelve principles at Arkos. They're on our website, but, if anybody's interested. But one of them is empower, don't control. And, that's the first thing that popped into my brain, when when you said that was, there is a tendency for me and for, I think, most parents, to say, you know, gosh. You know, there's different stages of parenting. Right?

Yes.

And as you're both of my, girls are adults. And the number one thing, of course, that I wish for them is to follow the Lord because I know where that leads. That leads to a good place. Mhmm. Okay? So that's number one. But the way they do that and the causes they might support, you know, God's gonna take them. We have some shared experience as a family. Mhmm. But, you know, my oldest daughter, she was just in the office for a little birthday celebration for one of our employees and this sort of thing, and she had her little baby with her. And I god is taking her I had two girls. She's got three boys already. Like, she's already she's got a different I mean, they will support different things. They will have different callings and causes. And so I just want them to, know where the source of truth and joy is and to pursue that without me prescribing for them what that might look like. And I think that is a that is not a natural thing for me as a father or most of us as parents

Right? Right. No. You're exactly right.

And I think it's a certain age. You know, one one of my friends always do gives us talk about, you know, the the the stages of parenting. You know, you're you're a caretaker and then a, you know, a cop and then a coach. And, eventually, when they're grown, hopefully, you're a consultant. Well, consultants only, give advice when asked. Right. That's a bit of a challenge.

That is a challenge as a parent.

Yes. It is. Yeah.

So allowing space for that empowerment of how how can we use all of our relational capital, our spiritual capital, our financial capital, to to help them, pursue their calling Yeah. Whatever that might be. And it's likely to be different from ours.

Sure. Sure. Yeah. That's that's good advice. Good advice, Jeff. Well, yeah, I've just got one more question, then we're gonna talk about something extra. So in twenty nineteen, you wrote your book, and I wanna camp out for a minute on this concept of trading up. I just love that. You, kind of near the end of the book, you know, I'm just gonna read I'm gonna read a little bit of the, so too much of my life has already been spent trying to fill the god sized vacuum that is inside of me. Was that Descartes? I think that was Descartes that said that. Right? Yeah. Everybody has a god sized vacuum, that only he can fill. People try to fill it with all kinds of things. You know, he you said that tennis wouldn't do it. Our Armani suit couldn't do it. Promotions, benefits couldn't do it. Money certainly couldn't do it. Fantastic job. Great wife. We may be thinking all of those things could fill that hole.

All good things.

All good things. Right? All good things. But you said, sheer surely, by god's grace, I've discovered the way out of unhappiness and lack of satisfaction brought inevitably by mere success and prosperity. It's that this whole book and the greatest discovery in my life is about you have to trade up. You have to trade up from success to significance. You have to trade up from a life that is self directed to one that is God tethered. Trade up from seeing one's job as a money field to seeing it as a mission field, trade up from enduring life to attacking it, to most of all, trade up our tired, worn out, wanna be gods for the true living god. I just thought that was a beautiful way to just end the sentiment of what this book is about. So I would highly encourage our listeners, go get the book. I know that it'll be a blessing to you. So, Jeff, this is called something extra. What do you believe is the something extra that every leader needs?

I think, you know, we're, as we're recording this, we're in the, you know, the final stages of football season, you know, for college and and the pros. And and it it it just seems that every every great coach talks about the fundamentals. You know? Like, embrace the process. It's true in business. It's true in sports. Embrace the process, and don't don't obsess over the outcome. Mhmm. And and so so I I I think the, for me, the most important fundamental, that I I was missing in my twenties and since my thirties, has completely changed my life is the fundamental of just spending a little bit of time with God every morning. I wake up, maybe it's just me. Okay? But I don't think so. I wake up thinking about my agenda, the things I have to do. Everything's on me. I gotta get my to do list done. I gotta you know, all these strategic things we I I I I I I. Okay? It's what I wake up thinking. Okay? And, and if I can spend just a little bit of time in in God's word, it's a may my blood pressure literally falls. And and I feel like all those pressures fall off of me, and my priorities change. Absolutely. And so and, like, if a baseball analogy is like, I don't know how these guys hit a hundred mile an hour fastballs. I don't get it. Like, how your brain you know? Well, the only way that can happen is doing a lot of cage work, you know, before you're in the real game. So you have a group swing. Like, it's cage work. Like, we we gotta we gotta get a

Spending time in the Word, that's cage work.

Get swing ready. So when the world throws you fastballs

Right.

You're not with them.

Yeah. That's so good.

Your swing is a little on plane. If you know what I mean?

I love it, Jeff. That is so good.

I think that's a simple idea.

Love it. Love it. Hey. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I have absolutely loved this time.

This has been great.

I know our listeners are gonna benefit so much from just hearing from you.

Thank you. Thanks for having me on, Lisa. It's been a joy.

Something extra with Lisa Nichols is a Technology Partners production. Copyright Technology Partners Inc. Twenty nineteen. To learn more about this week's guest, check out the show notes at t e I dot co slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, consider leaving us a review. Thank you for listening to Something Extra.